Ajay: Hi, Dr. Pauline, how are you?

Pauline: Hi. Good, thanks. Hi, Ajay.

Ajay: I’m so sorry, I didn’t get a chance to do a lot of research. Where are you based?

Dr. Pauline: I’m in Santa Barbara, California.

Ajay: Oh, you’re in Santa Barbara. Beautiful, Santa Barbara. You know, that’s my favorite place.

Dr. Pauline: Well, it’s. I moved here from lots of different places, but it’s definitely the most beautiful place I’ve ever lived.

Ajay: Yeah. It’s absolutely beautiful. Pauline, I’m very interested in talking to you, finding out about you, and see if I can help you with some of the questions that you have. So, this is for my audience so that they have a good background on you. Can you tell us something about you? So, just tell us about your practice, about anything special. Just tell us so that people can relate to what business that you have; you are running.

Dr. Pauline: Absolutely, Ajay. So, I am a licensed psychologist. I have a private practice in California and I am also licensed in New York. So, I’m licensed in two different states. So, I do have clients in New York as well as clients all over the state of California. My private practice is in Santa Barbara, California, and I see a few individuals in person. And I have a number of different specialty areas. My caseload is about half individuals, and half couples. I kind of see the individuals and the couples as on a related continuum.

I mostly see people who work really hard in their professional lives, and are often very successful, but who find themselves just not being able to find fulfillment in the personal life. And so, really struggling with emotional skills, struggling in, maybe, their relationships, or feeling like, “I’ve gotten everything I wanted to get professionally, but there are still all these areas of my personal life that I haven’t worked on.” And so, I really help individuals, these ambitious, motivated individuals be able to kind of tune into their needs, their wants to work on previous traumas, or things from childhood that have been unresolved and are still unconsciously playing out in their lives.

And I help them to figure those things out, rework them, and be empowered to be able to move forward and create the kind of life that would be fulfilling, the kind of relationships that would be fulfilling. So, I do see lots of different kinds of things bring people into therapy with me. So, I see things from anxiety, stress, grief, sometimes, a big life change, even positive ones like, having a child, or getting a new job. Often times, those things can be, what I call, these reflective pauses for people to say, “Okay, wait a second, let me reevaluate what’s going on in my life.”

So, that’s kind of the work that I do. I recently came back from maternity leave; I had a child in August of 2020. And when I came back 2021, in January, maternity leave, I got off insurance panels, and so, I’m now a completely private pay practice. I also brought on three associates, so I have three master’s-level clinicians that are working in my practice as employees and I provide them supervision, and I’m helping them really define what their niche is as I help them get through the process of getting their hours and becoming licensed on their own.

So, I’ve grown my practice tremendously in terms of all of those changes. I’m currently full and doing well in the practice. I’m mostly here to think about, “Okay, what’s next?” And I would love the support and your expertise, and how to carve out what’s next for me.

Ajay: Fantastic. So, first thing, obviously, congratulations on your baby.

Dr. Pauline: Thank you.

Ajay: I can see that it looks like it kind of goaded you to make some changes already, after you came back from maternity leave. So, it looks like you made some changes in your practice. And I know that, but just for my audience, do you mind quickly explaining the difference between psychologist and a psychiatrist?

Dr. Pauline: Absolutely. So, both are doctors. But I like to say, “I’m not that kind of doctor” meaning, I am not a medical professional. So, psychiatrists go to medical school and they specialize in mental health. They often work with mental illness and diagnosing and treating with the use of medication. So, they would be a doctor, a medical doctor with a particular specialty in mental health. While I often work with psychiatrists, I’m a psychologist. I have a PhD in counseling psychology and I work in the psychological elements.

I work to help people to be able to through tapping into their psychology emotionally, and relationally changed the things that are going on in their life. Sometimes, psychiatrists and psychologists will work together. I’ve got lots of psychiatrists who manage the medications that my clients are on, and we collaborate to ensure that the client is getting the best care. And also, some psychiatrists also provide psychological counseling. And I know some who spend a lengthy time not just on the medication side, but really being able to support their clients because they have the advanced education in mental health.

So, that’s the – the difference is really, in the medical degree and the fact that psychologists do not prescribe. However, recently, there have been some states that are allowing psychologists to prescribe. I do not want to be one of those psychologists. I will allow my medical colleagues to handle all of that. But the fields are somewhat merging in the sense that now, psychologists are being, in some places, given the opportunity to learn more about psychopharmacology and various medications in order to help their clients in that way.

Ajay: Thank you. Thanks for explaining it so clearly. Even though, I know that personally, I don't think I could have done a better job.

Dr. Pauline: Thank you.

Ajay: So, Pauline, now, let’s dive into your specific – the questions that you have for me. So, you want to talk about – so, why don’t you tell me the questions and I will see what I probably can answer.

Dr. Pauline: Great. I can’t wait. So, one of the biggest ones is I really want to be able to work on the business a bit more rather than working in the business. So, I want to work on the business. And I would love some guidance as to how to buy yourself more time.

Ajay: Okay. So, this is something that’s so close to me. And just like most of the other businesses – I started from scratch, my own business. And just like everyone else in the beginning, you are the CEO, you are the janitor, you are the receptionist, you are everyone. Right? You are it when it comes to business. And I was running, literally, like a chicken without a head for like, two years until I was a recovering corporate executive at that time. So, I was almost thinking about going back to corporation. And one day, I started to think about what I am doing. So, the first thing that I – so, what I did, I will tell you.

I just started to jot down the time that I’m spending on what. And then, I started to circle the ones that was not really adding any value. You know, like, returning a phone call and answering something which was not really relevant in terms of retention of acquisition of anything. So, the first thing, what I did is, I hired my – it was not easy, when you are starting your own business – I hired a personal assistant. Right? And said, “Okay, can you handle all these things?” That freed up so much of my time that I could start to think about my business.

So, I would say, sit down and jot down some of the time that you are spending on what. It’s not like a big thing. And you can start to circle and say which activity is adding value to your business. If they are not, then you should really delegate it. So, the delegation is probably the best thing that I can suggest. Now, you have like, two or three people they’re clinicians. Right? I don't know if you have a support staff or not. But if you don't have a support staff, these days, you can have a virtual staff. Bottom line is, just identify the things that you are doing which is not really adding any value to the business, and then, delegate them. That would be my – the only thing that I had done.

And by the way, I evaluate that every quite often, I would say, every quarter. So, again, I do the same thing. I take a step back and say where I am spending my time on. And does it make sense for me to keep on doing this? And a lot of – now, I have a lot of support, obviously, so it’s very easy for me to delegate, 19 years later, in my own business. But delegation, I think, is the best thing to do to feel doing only evaluative stuff.

Dr. Pauline: Wonderful. My mind is already going to all the things I probably can delegate even now, so I’m looking forward to making that list. Connected, that one is one of the things that I do spend a considerable amount of time on is my consultation process. Right now, I schedule calls, and in those calls, I’m working to build rapport, connect. I’ve changed the way I’m doing my calls to now say, I’m the one that’s doing the calls, but I have three others in my practice, and almost without wanting to turn into a group practice because, these associates will only be with me for a certain period of time, so I don't want to change the structure of my entire practice.

But I still field the calls and then, kind of get them to the right person. And there’s so many – you know, sometimes, those calls can take up to 30 minutes. Sometimes, they still have questions, and being able to coordinate and get them to the right place, and having – sometimes, I can have anywhere from five to seven calls a week, and if they’re taking about 30 minutes, it’s just so much of my time. I want to deal with the consultation process when people contact me in a more efficient manner. I’ve done a few things that really help my associates communicate and market their niches so that people are more directly contacting them rather than going through me.

But I still get more calls than any of them get because I’ve been in practice for far longer and I’m licensed. So, I’m wondering what your ideas are about not having so much of my week have to have these lengthy consultation calls setup. They’re not just logistical. It’s not something I can just pass off because it is also making a connection with the client, making them feel cared for, and assessing whether they’re even a good fit for my practice altogether because, ultimately, even with my associates, I’ll be the one that is holding the liability.

Ajay: No, definitely. So, is this something that they call and then, you talk to them, and then, you say, “I think that Ajay will be the right person” and then, you tell them that? For example, I’m just throwing an example, I would be the right person, and connect with me. Is that what you’re telling right now?

Dr. Pauline: Yeah. The people usually contact me through my website or through my Psychology Today, and then, I’m the one fielding it, connecting it, and making the connection with one of my associates.

Ajay: So, you still want to have some of the personal touch, like, for example, I absolutely hate when I call someone and I get – now, it’s less of it, but when you start to get this phone call answering service, where it’s like, “For this, Dial 1-2.” And it’s like, it just really annoys the heck out of me. So, I promised myself that if I ever become successful enough to have people, I would never have that kind of phone system. And that was probably one of the reasons I was running like a chicken without a head in the beginning.

So, but then, later on, what you can do – so, you can do half and half. So, you still want the personal touch, so you want to talk to them, and you want to tell them that and do the consultation. But one of the things you could consider doing, Pauline, after the initial call, drive them to a questionnaire so that you can have – you know that you have been doing this for so long, you know, what are the questions to ask. So, one of the things that could be, when you talk for five minutes, and then, say, “Okay, here’s the thing. I’m going to send you this questionnaire, if you can just fill it up and then, submit it.

And then, again, I would love to talk to you after that.” Because, essentially, that half-an-hour call, you can cut it to 10 minutes – I’m just throwing a number – and still keep that personal touch. So, that’s what I would do. My suggestion is to automate some of the things that you’re doing. Anything that is repetitive. So, you are asking the questions, and I’m sure that many questions are the same. But when you ask a question, the answer could be much longer, right? The time it takes to answer. So, you can automate it, and that’s very easy.

You can have it added on your website something that is totally secured. And then, it just comes to you in a PDF format or whatever. There are so many HIPPA-complaint ways of capturing the information. So, that would be my one suggestion. I always look at automation. And I look and see where I can automate, obviously, without losing that personal touch. Because, a personal touch, you are very – that is, I think, the backbone of the –, clients can relate to you. Considering that, I mean, that could be one suggestion.

And then, another thing is obviously, if you have – but I don't think that seems to be the problem because you are always – you’re talking to them, right? Every person. Spending half an hour or so before you say, “Okay, here's the right person to talk to you.” I would say see what portion of that you can automate without – you want to have the first touch, connection, and you want to be there again after they have done the homework, or filled up the work for you, again, talk to them.

So, those two things you desperately want to do. And in between, so maybe, you can cut back your 30 minutes to 10 minutes, and that could be another one to – that’s something that I can suggest in terms of automating. But any other way you can automate that, I think that is the way to go.

Dr. Pauline: Great. Ajay, my practice has a few specialty areas with me, as well as with my associates. So, how can I market this in a way that feels seamless, but still highlights all the different things that I work on without spending a ton of money on marketing each one of these specialties separately?

Ajay: So, Pauline, this is where – this is interesting because these days, the easiest thing – so, your digital marketing makes it much more easier for you to do that. Right? So, on the website itself, you can talk about all the specialties, and you can organize it in such a way that when people are searching for –. So, for example, I will use the medical term because I don't know a lot of the psychological thing. But suppose in the medical practice, they’re just handling both orthopedics and cardiology.

So, the website can talk about both specialties in really, a section in it such that, if someone is searching for cardiology, they will go automatically to – the Google will guide them in the cardiology section versus if someone is looking for orthopedics, they will go to the orthopedics section. So, your different areas of practice, I would say, on the website, you can – I’m sure that you already have it, have a very detailed section of those. And then, Google already helps you. So, your will tell you what are the key words people are using when they are looking for this clinician, versus that clinician, versus that clinician.

And you just want to make sure that for those key words, you are found. So, it is still an investment, obviously, but it’s not a humongous investment. And especially, in your case, you have, I think, local but also – you said that your client base is in New York and California. Right?

Dr. Pauline: Yeah.

Ajay: So, again, the digital marketing can handle that without you spending a fortune on it. So, that would be the ideal thing that you can do. When someone goes on the website, No. 1, they should very clearly see, very quickly, they can see the solution that you are providing, you know, all the treatments that you’re doing. And then, when they go to that area of interest, it should be as if like, there’s a website on that, you know, a section that is totally dedicated to it so that they can see that you have the expertise and all. And by doing that, like I said, Google, people who don’t come – who are looking for their solution, Google will just guide them directly to that section, not even on the home page of your website.

Dr. Pauline: Great. And then, speaking of marketing, I am currently running Google Ads, but would love to venture into additional strategies for marketing. Are there any maybe lesser-known tips for marketing that might not be as commonly advertised to be able to just have more marketing out there?

Ajay: So, you know, one of the things that, I always say that social media is really wonderful. But not for advertising. So, you can use the platforms to position you as an expert. So, you want to eventually with – you have all the experience, you want to become an influencer, really. So, that people who are there as a referral, that people just tell you when someone asks about your solutions. So, I think that is something that you should consider. I’m sure that you are already writing, there are whitepapers, and all, right on the site. But if you really want to do that – and to an extent, this is what I am doing, and I’m talking to you, and trying to help you because my forte is marketing. I can talk about that.

Using channels like this is always very helpful because now, you are doing some service – definitely, you are doing service to people. But those things are very – can become very useful because now, in your area of specialty, you can have any kind of – these kinds of forums and something that you handle and you can go write. So, now that you are – Google everywhere, my suggestion is to try to see how you can position yourself as an influencer, as an expert in this area. And like I said, the way to do that is, of course, whitepapers.

I don't know if you have written a book or not. Writing a book, talking about that in social media, creating a forum, doing some voluntary work online. Because, those are the things that can go very viral. So, that would be my suggestion to you other than –. See, I’ve become almost – someone who started with print, and TV, and radio advertising in my career. I don’t like to spend any money on those anymore because, it’s just a one-time impact versus on digital. Something, anything that you do could – everything that you have done on the web lasts.

So, every article that you have written, every talk that you have given, anything that has gone on the internet. If anyone searches for you, they will see that, all that information, all this here. So, it makes a lot of sense, I would say. And obviously, I would say a whitepaper is very important. And maybe you can create a forum where you have something that for 20 minutes that people can come and have their Q&A, and you can just give them basic answers. Do something that is going to position you more as an expert. And that will generate its own good and through that, its own business.

Dr. Pauline: You are anticipating each of my questions because each time I ask you, you almost smoothly move it to the next one. Actually, when I first wanted to be a guest and to seek your expertise, I did not have social media. But since writing to you, I do have social media. So, as I begin – and I’ve had all sorts of my own fears and anxieties about having social media partly because of – and I can imagine you can relate to this working with healthcare professionals, that we’re so used to our work being very much this private, confidential thing that happens between two or just a few people.

And moving into the digital space, I want to be able to maintain my expertise, my legitimacy as a mental health professional, and to manage all of that ethically. But I also want to be relatable and to, as you said, position myself as somebody who has a perspective and is an expert in a variety of specialty areas. And so, how do you suggest that I approach engaging in digital marketing and social media, in particular?

Ajay: So, if you are talking – so, for example, if you are talking about, let’s talk the stress, or the burnout. And you are saying, here are some of the things that could be triggering – that triggers the burnout. And which is clearly, generic, but this is still very specific, right? And anyone who is feeling burnout will definitely – it's going to get their attention immediately. So, you can always find things that make it more generic. Because, I know that when you get into the deep of anything, which you do, with a patient, that’s a whole different area.

But patients knowing that, “Oh, these are some of the things that could be the reason for my burnout.” And then, you can always suggest that you go to a psychologist to really identify what are the reasons for it. And if you start to think about the reasons that your clients come to you, your patients, every reason is practically you have a whitepaper, a social media post with possible details So, essentially, again, you want to become a. Right? You can make it very heartful and still –. For example, when I tell you that, okay, social media is important, you should look into it.

Now, there’s so many social media and so, is Facebook good for you? Or is it TikTok, or is it LinkedIn? I mean, those things can only be done after a more in-depth analysis for any business. But in general, if I’m telling someone, the social media, the good way to start to become an influencer in the marketplace and leader, I’m correct. So, same thing, I would say, think about all the problems that you are facing that – and so, you have so many topics. And you can always write something that is generic, but very useful.

And essentially, the best thing to do is people – you know, no one can read and solve the problem. Right? Unfortunately, there are way too many literature that I see, it seems like, “Oh, that will solve your problem. Do you have XYZ? Okay. This is what you do and it’ll solve your issue.” Now, again, something like that, “You should always go to a doctor rather than treat yourselves.” So, and that is something – there will always be the conclusion. But my thing is that you – I mean, with your number of patients that you have seen, and you know what are the new things trending. You can always – you are on the.

So, if you start, “Hey, we are seeing – there seems to be a lot of issue with stress because of Coronavirus, and how it can impact in the life of people.” Now, if you are talking in general terms, so long you are not talking about any specific client, that’s perfectly okay. There is nothing wrong with what you have learned and sharing that. So, that’s what I – you have like, a well of information that you can make it very useful for everyone without compromising any detail of any patient, any HIPAA issue.

Dr. Pauline: Wonderful. Do I have time for one more, Ajay?

Ajay: Yeah, sure.

Dr. Pauline: Great. So, next steps for me. I shifted the structure of my business, I’ve grown it. It’s all private pay now. I have three employees. And I’m thinking about what’s next. There’s a lot of psychologists that are writing books. And some of my colleagues are starting podcasts, or developing courses, or group programs. I really am interested in diversifying what I’m doing, but sometimes, I just get stuck in figuring out what to do next. There is lots of different ideas, and it almost feels like I get somewhat frozen in figuring out all the wonderful possibilities, but then, not knowing how to proceed.

So, from your expertise, what are some concrete steps that I can take to figuring out what’s next as I begin to do things that are outside of just face-to-face therapy? And part of that is motivated by all the changes coming back from maternity leave is, I want to spend time with my family, and I’d like to not have it be this – I have to constantly be in front of the client in order to be able to have a livelihood and to be paid for things. And so, it would be wonderful to have a variety of different ways where I’m getting income somewhere I’m – it’s high-touch, and somewhere, it’s a little bit lower-touch. And so, how do I – I’ve got all those ideas, but how do I start making action towards some of those things?

Ajay: Yeah. So, there are a lot of things that we can obviously brainstorm that you can do. But one thing that I always – that is –. So, right now – I’m trying to figure out how to put it. So, right now, you are getting your fee based on the hours you put in. Right?

Dr. Pauline: Yes.

Ajay: So, it’s part of an accrued income because you are not selling your hours; you’re doing something that’s very useful. But just like I have started a. So, it’s basically hours. You allude to how many hours you can work and then, what money you’re going to make is dependent on that. Right? So, maximum, only 24 hours. And if you earn whatever, a thousand dollars per hour, that’s your limitation is $24,000 per day, if you can do that, not sleep or do anything else. So, you always, what you want to do is figure out how to increase your earnings per hour.

So, you cannot add any hours in your day. But what you can do is you can figure out how – one hour of work, the return you are getting is more. And so, that is the first thing that I will say, definitely, you need to identify how, an example, obviously, you are already doing it, when you have these – now, with the three clinicians that you have on your payroll. And so, they are generating more of you than what you’re paying, then that is a plus. Right? Which is your hour of managing that you are doing on your platform with your skills.

Consider something like, maybe, can you have a forum. Right? Or you can have people who are subscribers, and now, you are sort of doing one-on-one, you are doing one-on-five, or one-on-ten, which you can always do it on the web, you can make it – the beauty is that you can make it anonymous. But someone who is there, they will know, but other people can do it. So, my thing is that is it possible – so, I don't know if it’s possible or not, but if you are doing one-on-one, and suppose there are five people – so, you are saying, “Okay, I’m doing one-on-one,” again, going back to burnout.

If you do one-on-one on burnout, $500 per hour, or $100 per hour, but there will be 10 people there. And you will be anonymous, but you can always – and again, it’s totally, like, one of the reasons I focus my podcast only on healthcare providers is because anyone who is listening, they can relate to it. If someone with a gas station, who owns a gas station was listening to this podcast, for them, it won’t make sense, what you and are talking about. But the same thing, if you – and you know your business better.

But if it is doable then, yeah, anonymity, no problem. You can still do a Q&A and everything, but then, granted it will be that your earnings per hour will go up. If you can manage multiple people, obviously. Because, what you want to do, Pauline, one thing that I would suggest, and this is a discipline I learn from my mentor, a hundred years back, when I first started, when I was a young professional was that, you want to pick up one thing at a time, and you want to just own it, dominate that. So, don’t try too many things. Don’t run a podcast and do this, this, this. Think about, make a list of one, two, three, four, five options that you have.

And then, try to figure out where you can be most productive. And then, I would say, just go for it. And you want to become the dominant player, you want to maximize before you look into something else. Too many of my clients I see get really – they start to chase all the shiny objects, and then, you don’t go anywhere. Right? Because, you’re running around chasing one object, and something new comes up, and then, start chasing that one. So, that’s what I would say is pick up one thing, come up with a plan, launch it, and see –. And the worst thing that will happen, Pauline is that it won’t work. Right?

You try something, it won’t work, that’s fine. You take your learning from there, and you move on, and say, “Okay, what else can I do?” But my thing is that see how you can maximize your hours, the value of the hours. And then, you can go from there. There are platforms. You can literally create a platform where people can ask questions, you can answer. It’s still personal. But now, you do it at your time. They don’t get urgent. And if there is an urgency, they can reach out to you, but then, the fees vary.

Figure out how – if it’s in your – you just have to start thinking creatively. Okay? How you can –. So, I would say that thing. And again, this is, I’m assuming that you are happy with your business, and you just want to make the most of it. Now, if you want to be an influencer, you want to be a writer, you want to become famous, now those are – so, depending on your goal, once you have your goal very clear then, I would say, for this goal, these are the things that you can list. And then, you’ll start to say, “Which I’m going to be more comfortable, where I’m more passionate about.”

I have always noticed that the things that you’re passionate about, generally speaking, much easier to stick to. And you already know that you have to stick to – you seldom have, in gratification, in business. Where you start something and you say, “Wow, we know this is so successful.” Always like, start slowly, so given that, the more passionate you are about something that you want to do, the more you are likely to stick to it and ultimately, become successful. It’s a long-rambling answer, Pauline just because, everything is going to be – it is so personal for everyone.

<>pBut generally speaking, that’s what I always say try to make your hours more useful both for society and also, more internally. And I don’t see that as mutually exclusive. You should be able to do both.

Dr. Pauline: That’s amazing. I mean, this was so, so helpful, I was feverishly writing notes here, and I know that I will mull over them, and glean lots of new insights, even as I reflect on these notes. So, I really appreciate all of this from your collective wisdom, Ajay.

Ajay: Wonderful. Thank you, Pauline. And by the way, feel free to reach out to me if you have some specific question. If you get stuck and say, “What did he mean by that?” Just feel free to reach out to Oliver, and we can always have a five-minute meeting. We don't have to have it on podcast. And I don’t charge by minutes or anything. It’s just my pleasure to help, my new, budding entrepreneurs.

Dr. Pauline: This is amazing. Thank you. Thank you, Ajay, I really appreciate that. I will have to take you up on that offer. And thank you, Oliver, for coordinating all of these various pieces to have me on today. I feel really honored and feel just really lucky to get all of these amazing insights from you today. A lot of it made sense and was very encouraging. Thank you.

Ajay: Thank you, Pauline.

Dr. Pauline: I would love to connect with you. Easiest way to connect with me is to go to my website. It’s www.therapywithpauline.com. I’m also newly-minted on Instagram. My handle is @paulinethepsychologist. And so, you can find me there with some of my new musings. Again, I am available for private practice in Santa Barbara, locally, and in-person, as well as telehealth all over California, as well as New York. I also have three associates with their own areas of specialties, so check them out on my website. And also, read the blog that I’ve got. Anything that is interesting and a passion area of mine, I put on my blog, that I release at least a few times a month. Thanks, so much.

Speaker: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Founder's Corner Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to rate and follow us on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, and SoundCloud. If you are interested in being a guest, be sure to visit our main page at www.gmrwebteam.com/thefounderscorner.